Comments on Hacking Christianity: Top-down polity v. bottom-up policy [bad.hack]

I remember quite vividly how excited I was when th...

2008-05-06T01:04:00.000-05:00

I remember quite vividly how excited I was when the Igniting Ministry campaign was first getting ready to launch. "Open hearts, open minds, open doors" sounded exactly like the kind of UMC I wanted to be a part of. I guess it just looked good on paper. I haven't seen much of it actually put into practice locally and from some of the reports I've read so far about GC it's not just a local thing. "Open" -- unless we think you're here just for the use of our building or to get your kid baptised ... or you're female with a calling to preach ... or you happen to be in a loving (and sexual) relationship with someone who just happens to share the same genitalia. It still have hope for the UMC, though. Sooner or later we'll get it figured out.

Great point about the value of $500 versus the val...

2008-05-05T21:13:00.000-05:00

Great point about the value of $500 versus the value of potential discipling. We need much more of that kind of thinking in the church today.

....yeah, I think you'd be hard pressed to conside...

2008-05-05T13:29:00.000-05:00

....yeah, I think you'd be hard pressed to consider ordaining women to be anything other than a good hack on this blog! :)

And it is certainly biblically faithful, but probably not in the way you define it!

Thanks for stopping by...feel free to leave your name and link next time, I like to know more about my readers!

No way was that vote "swayed" by a lady suggesting...

2008-05-05T13:18:00.000-05:00

No way was that vote "swayed" by a lady suggesting churches would be losing out on "facility rental" money.

As with most votes at G.C. (or anywhere for that matter) 98 % already have a particualar aim in mind with their vote. If votes were swayed, I seriously doubt this is the woman and the logic that swayed them.

Speaking of women, and the reference to the vote that allowed women to be ordained...I think that is when all the real problems began in the UMC. We wouldn't be struggling to remain biblically faithful in so many other issues had we remained biblically faithful at that time.

I know that line of thought is in the minority here on this blog, but it's the truth!

@ Sonja, yeah, the tagline bothers me a little bit...

2008-05-05T09:59:00.000-05:00

@ Sonja, yeah, the tagline bothers me a little bit. What about those who don't consider themselves able-bodied or simply "able" to transform the world? Are they (a) worth less to the church, or (b) now seeing themselves as less worthy?

@ John (CttW), opposition was definitely based on more than this. But Alice Wolfe was the presenter of the minority report, and thus TWICE she repeated that argument. Did it sway hearts to tumble all amendments? Of course not. But 6 people? Very possibly, especially given the fear-mongering already present on the floor and the culture of suspicion ever-present at GC.

@ matt, thanks for your comments and the video. I'll watch that when I get home tonight and will probably thoroughly enjoy it!

I hadn't heard about the silly arguments, but it d...

2008-05-05T09:54:00.000-05:00

I hadn't heard about the silly arguments, but it doesn't surprise me. Last Friday I looked up the 1956 conference vote that gave women ordination rights, and the vote was close (though not 12 votes close). We have a tendency to think that these votes are unanimous or at least that they pass by wide margins, but that vote only passed by 92 votes with a 57% majority. If 46 people had changed their votes, it would have gone the other way.

More importantly, and more to the point of your post, I found a video of 2006's commemoration of that vote, in which there was a dramatic reading of the floor debate on that issue. Video here, 4th row.

The debate was just as stupid, with people arguing that only single women should be ordained, then only married women should be ordained, then that it would be demeaning to the women, and of course that the Church isn't ready.

It's cold comfort, but after this finally passes (which it will), in 50 years people will be laughing at the dumb arguments just like we laugh at those from the heated debate 50 years ago.

I agree that the 'straw human' argument was weak.B...

2008-05-05T08:38:00.000-05:00

I agree that the 'straw human' argument was weak.

But I suspect opposition to the measure was based on more than this argument.

...and what about making disciples of Jesus Christ...

2008-05-05T08:22:00.000-05:00

...and what about making disciples of Jesus Christ for "the transformation of the world." I am assuming that we are now playing God and determining who can be in Jesus' inner circle. Sounds Pharisaic to me.